Adam and Jeremy Say: They May Hate Us, But Do We Hate Them?

So Jeremy and I wanted to contiune our "They Hate Us and Liberty" Conversation from last week. If you did not catch it here is a link back to it, and I want to appologize in advance for the lenght of these posts, but both Jeremy and I got really into it and we hope that you chime in again with your insights.

Adam: I am really glad people like CJ are willing to hold our feet to the fire and test our faith. We could easily make all sorts of posts about faith, but never actually live out the words we write. I think it is great that people are willing to challenge each other. On some points CJ is right... I have met a handful of homosexual people in my life, and honestly I have always been too afraid to talk with them about their sexuality because I want to act normal around them, and I don’t want to offend anyone. I guess its some twisted logic of mine that I want people who are different from me to feel the same as people who are the same as me... but in that process I learn about jobs, sports, cars, etc. but I never learn about the deeper issues a person is facing. I think the point CJ makes is that we want to be loving and accepting of people, but until we stop “acting” loving and accepting and start getting to know what is going on below the surface then we will never really be able to know and love them... maybe he is right...

Jeremy: I agree. He is right in that Jesus tells us to be loving, and we should definitely do that with everyone including gays. But I also think he makes a good point, that we can say we love them, but if we don't make a little extra effort like "getting to really know one and talk to them about it", then are we really loving them or just simply "treating them normal"? Take for example my brother. I have never had a deep intimate conversation about his sexuality with him (then again, what straight brothers usually have that conversation?). I think he knows I love him, and unlike my dad and sister I have never had an argument with him about it and told him he was wrong. Plus, inviting Gary (my brothers partner) to our wedding I think was an effort of me and Jax to show that we still want them to be part of our lives even though we don't agree. I remember the rest of my family all reacting funny when we told them we were inviting Gary. I’m not trying to buff myself up, but all to say, I think we were making an effort, but I still haven’t gone as far as CJ has described with asking the hard, personal questions.
And the following is probably a good indicator as to why I should ask:
“I don't want to because I know it could make me uncomfortable.”

Adam: I think in some measure you are right in loving your brother and Gary without asking tough questions about their sexuality... I mean you know they are gay... so I don't know if there is a need to go past that... now you may want to talk to your brother about how he discovered his sexuality... or if something like your parents divorce had something to do with it, but I think those are questions about people and not questions about sexual preference... in the end the only difference between you and he is your fondness for the fairer sex right?

It was either Peter or Paul who said that we as Christians should focus on what is good, pure, beautiful, fare, just, etc. in our pursuit of peace, and I think the same holds true with anyone who you interact with... your focus should not be what their sins are or what your differences’ are, but instead your focus should be what is good, beautiful, and pure in them. We are all God's creation and on that level we are all equal.

I don't think we need to speak anymore about Dr. Falwell since that topic has been so overdone of late. So let’s move past that to an interesting point. Several people who commented made reference to living like Christ, and how if we lived like Christ then we would be respected and loved. I have a few thoughts on that. One it is interesting how a conversation about the hateful things people say about Liberty and its students has become so personal to you and I. I think I was originally just ticked at the hypocrisy of people who called themselves open minded but then stereotyped every Liberty student in a negative manner.

I think that people forget what the teachings of Christ where and what they meant... Jesus Christ was killed for his teachings and actions obviously they are not they kind of teachings and actions that make everyone love and adore you. I agree that Jesus tough a great amount about loving your neighbor and doing right and there are many Christians today who do not do anything close to that on a personal level,
However Christ also told us to die to ourselves, to admit that there is a God who created us and is over us and we should obey Him, He taught that we need to sacrifice in order that others can be first, He told us we must serve, all of which runs counter to Americas current culture. Now we want what’s best for us, no matter the cost. We make the rules we decide what is right and what is wrong, we put ourselves first and make others pay. Our society is Greedy, Selfish, and as I said before Shameless. These are all things Jesus preached against, violently at times, just ask the Pharisees in the Temple when Jesus cleaned house. So I don't know if people really mean it when they tell others to follow Christ’s' example or if maybe they just want us to follow the parts of Christ example that are warm and fuzzy.

Finally I think what you and I do in our service to the Lord as far as serving; loving, giving and sacrifice are personal and are not appropriate for this medium. Obviously if someone challenges you on your actions of love you want to respond with a list of all the righteous things you have done, but that defeats the purpose. We are called to love unconditionally not because it makes us look or feel good but because it is what God asks of us. I think Jesus summed it up when told the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (I might have the wrong occupation there) who were both at the temple praying... the Pharisee was praying out loud in flowery language so everyone could see how holy he was while the tax collector prayed silently and was humble... in the end Jesus tells us that the righteous man was the tax collector because he was praying to God while the Pharisee was really praying to impress man.

Jeremy: Good call. I don't want to give a list to prove our piety either. I like what you said on focusing on what is good, pure, and right. The hard part about that is that there is a "sexual preference" wall in between us, and I guess we could just ignore it....or can you? I guess the truth is, we can still love them despite them being gay, and we can even be loving in a conversation about it with them, but doesn't that also mean being open and honest from our perspective? I mean we can always sit there and listen and understand, but shouldn't I also be able to be honest about how I feel about it? Can I still be loving and tell them why I think what they are doing is wrong?

Adam: I think you are touching on an important point there... Dialogue! It does not really matter what the difference is; whether it’s sexual preference, political ideals or your favorite music we should all be open and willing to talk about it. That becomes tough though when dialogue turns into abuse, and it is even tougher to begin dialogue when it begins with abuse, as was the case when we began this discussion. I would like to see a place where people could all hold to the same standard in relation to dialoguing differences... it seems so often that one side is required to be accepting and loving while the other side can become offended and vindictive. You are right in saying that you should be able to be honest about how you feel and in return a person who disagrees with you should be honest about how they feel, but I think that too often we make comments about our feelings without giving concrete reasoning behind our feelings, and that can be a problem.

Take the abortion debate for example. I oppose the practice of abortion, and when I discuss this topic if I stopped there and just told people I was in opposition to the practice then the conversation would not get very far, but I try to take it a step or two further. I explain that I support the use of birth control before conception and that I huge supporter of adoption after birth, but I believe that abortion is wrong because it ends the life of a person created by God. Sometimes this gives me an opportunity to talk about common ground with people who do not agree. For example many who support the practice are also supporters of adoption and are more willing to talk about adoption than wasting time trying to beat each other up over abortion. However there are those who will argue and be hateful no matter what, and I guess it is those types of people who began this whole thing... and while we have yet to come up with an answer that satisfies I do think this discussion has given us pause to think...

Do we understand others? Are we giving them a chance to explain so that we can understand? Are we meeting people’s physical needs? Can we comprehend a person’s point of view if we have not had any real contact with that person’s world?

As cynical as it sounds Rage Against the Machine may have had a point when they sang "Know your enemy" not that I view those who disagree and oppose me as enemies but I think it is beneficial to understand who they are.

In the end the Bible tells us that Christians will be known by there love for one another, and I hope that people can see that you and I are loving

Jeremy Says:Abortion is Homocide

I came across an interesting article from a UK newspaper yesterday.

It's a good read, and although it reminds me of the sad truth that babies are being killed everyday, it was encouraging.

It recaps the story of this girl named Anna, who went to have an abortion, and right before the execution took place, she decided to spare the life of her innocent baby. This story didn't really bring any new incite to me on the issue, but it did enforce my belief that mothers know the difference between right and wrong and although some can murder their own child and have no regrets about it, others can be convicted to do right thing.

Adam Says: Let it SNOW!

So the snow is coming to Richmond... and no "the snow" is not a hot new indie band... its actually supposed to snow here at any moment. Jeremy has already been snowed out in Ashville so let me offer you a grab bag of information sure to warm your snow-y afternoon.

We recently talked about the new Anberlin album "Cities" which drops this month. Well now I am doubly stoked because Anberlin is making a run to the 930 Club Friday the 23rd! You can bet I will be there and you can also bet I will be screaming "OHHHHHH" along when they play their new single "Godspeed," the show is only $14 so you better show up if your are in the DC area... You DON'T want to miss out.

Yesterday we featured a video from one of my new fav's My Brightest Diamond well I just found out that she will be touring with my uber-fav the Decemberist and better still they will be appearing in Norfolk at the Norva on Sunday April 1st! Tickets go on sale this Saturday at 10am! (Come on DSL connection don't fail me now!)

For those of you in Richmond VA this Friday evening come out to Broad Street in the evening for Richmond's wonderful art walk, First Fridays, the event features some great artists and a really cool atmoshpere. Kira and I are particularly found of the Ada Gallery on Broad so when you come out make sure you stop by there and see what amazing works they are displaying this month.

One last thing... maybe... You need to visit my favorite photo blog Istoica. these guys do great work and they have let the world know about it every day with their blog. They are based out of Toronto if I am not mistaken, and that has become one of the factors that has led Kira and I to plan our next vacation for that art/culture rich city.

That should be enough to wet your pallet for today... tomorrow more proof that the world is doomed until then check out Jeremy and My discussion on abortion; it is a topic that is important to us and we think you should give it some thought of your own.

Adam and Jeremy Say: Abortion Debate...

Adam: Berg, on Monday I participated the March For Life in Washington D.C. I was offering my support of the pro life cause; what are your thoughts on abortion?

Jeremy: Hate it. And I think this is an issue we can argue without really getting into religious beliefs. I mean if I was totally honest, I would say that God creates every fetus because he wants to. Therefore, abortion is murder because it ends a life that God ordained and created in his image.
If I am going to be against abortion in the political/social world, I have to look at it differently. Because for the same reasons I don't want Muslims forcing their beliefs on me, I don't want to force my religious beliefs on anyone else. So, I'm sure murder is defined by the dictionary as the killing of any human person. But, I think the US Constitution actually limits illegal murder to the killing of another US citizen. From there, I think it goes to define a US citizen and anyone born in the US, which obviously excludes fetuses. But in the same way I don't have the moral right to go kill my immigrant friend(not born in the US), I should not have the moral right to kill a fetus.

The word on the street is that a fetus is not actually a human. So, just like you can kill a plant, deer, virus, or any other living thing, you can also kill a fetus. Can you see how ridiculous that sounds? That just because a baby is not born, it makes it non-human. Insane! We all know that humans can survive outside the womb many days before the average "due date". I don't know the survival cut off date for a fetus to be able to live outside the womb, but I would assume that you are not allowed to abort a baby if it is past that date.

It comes down to when do you think the soul of a person is introduced to the flesh? (if you don't think humans have souls, then we are no different than a plant, and referring to the paragraph above, I would then have the moral freedom to kill you). I remember thinking through that, and the only strong defining moments I found in a fetuses life are the heartbeat, brainwaves, and conception. Well, we all know that people can have their heart stopped, and be brought back to life, so I ruled that one out. Then, I got thinking about how brainwaves have been detected in strange places throughout medical history, so I don't place a lot of value in brainwaves as being a defining moment of "life". That only leaves one other option. Conception. Human life must begin at conception.


Adam: First as a Christian I agree that my morality is totally based on Gods law and His will, which I believe to be the absolute truth, but I also believe that those who do not have fellowship with God cannot complete comprehend this and so it would not be fair of me to force Gods law on people (as you said) but I do think as a person in fellowship with God I have the mandate to advocate for Gods laws, and to try and explain who God is and why others should join in fellowship with Him (and consequently follow his law.) So it’s harder for me to look at this topic objectively, but I don't think its impossible.

Abortion shows a lack of intellectual honesty and personal responsibility while at the same time it displays a wealth of selfishness and Pride.

Scientifically the abortion debate hinges on the fact that, according to pro-abortion scientist, a fetus in the womb is not a human life. I don't agree; I could try and go into the talk about how in the first trimester a baby’s heart is beating and its brain is working and things like that, but I am not an expert so I will sum it up like this: Based on scientific data I do not think you can make a case for human life starting at birth. PreBorn children are human lives as well and I think you are deceiving yourself if you can look at the evidence at believe otherwise.

Let me make an aside here: I do not think its possible even for those who support abortion early in pregnancy to support partial birth abortion without lying to themselves. The practice of delivering a child half way and stabbing his/her skull with scissors is barbaric and can not be condoned by anyone.

I completely agree that women should have a right to chose. They have the right to chose partners, the right to chose to have or not to have sex, the right to chose birth control methods, but I think that right to chose ends when another human life is involved. In the case of abortion I feel as if people do not want to take responsibility for the choices they have made; I mean if you screw up and get drunk with some guy you don't like and then have sex and subsequently get pregnant that was a series of bad choices, but at some point you have to take responsibility for those bad choices, you can not just kill a preborn child and solve your problem.

This lack of personal responsibility is directly related to selfishness. We want to do what is "best" for us (lets not get into the mental and physical health issues that most women suffer because of their abortions.) I equate this type of selfishness to slavery. When our country was founded most intellectually honest people would admit (maybe only to themselves) that owning another person was not right, but the wealth and prosperity they enjoyed because of the "free" labor provided by slaves made it appealing for them to continue the practice of slavery. Their selfishness is the sole reason it took nearly 100 years for our independent country to stop the practice of slavery. And, with abortion the practice is even worse because in this case the “slaves” do not even have a chance to live, they don't have a chance to hope for freedom, the don't have a chance to experience life period, I can think of no more insipid a practice or unjust a fate.

As is the case with all sin the root of the issue can be traced to pride. We as a people have decided that we are so great that we can choose life or death. We have decided that we are so smart that we can tell you when the life of a child inside a mother's womb begins. We decide that we are so important that we cannot be bothered by trivial matters, and inconveniences like CHILDREN. And of course as a Christian I am doubly insulted that we would think ourselves so great that we could decree that an entire nation may mock the word of God and ignore His law in destroying human life.

Just thinking about this issue gets me so fired up that I wear myself out. I don't understand how people cannot see that abortion is the murder of a child, but maybe that's my fault. Whatever the case I think it's important that we not only be conscious objectors but I also think it imperative that we offer a solution. As I stated before as a Christian I would want people to have fellowship with God and to follow God's law, but I know that is a large task that only God can accomplish, and until that comes to fruition I think it is crucial that we offer alternatives to abortion. Most importantly I think we should be addressing adoption. If someone truly feels that they cannot handle a child then I would beg them to give that Child up for adoption. There are many people out there who cannot have children and want to adopt, and there are a growing number of people like my wife and I that want to adopt along with naturally birthed children. I think its time for the pro life community to start putting some real teeth into the adoption option. I think we need to push the government to make adoption a financial option for all families and not just those who currently can afford such an expensive and lengthy process. I think we should support agencies and ministries that are trying to make adoption a possibility for more people, and most importantly I think pro lifers should all take a hard look at adopting themselves even if they are fertile. How can you tell someone something is wrong, and there are alternatives if you are not willing to participate in that alternative yourself?

Jeremy: Me and my wife know a girl who just got an abortion a few weeks ago. It’s been tough, and the hardest part for me is holding back hateful thoughts. Her and her husband were trying so long to have a baby, and went through all this embryo implants and the whole bit. A couple months in the pregnancy, some tests came back positive for some fluid behind the baby's brain indicating a possible chromosomal defect. There's not a whole lot we can do now, but it’s just a sad story and hits close to home. It just sucks that they were going through so much to have a baby in the first place, and then after finally getting pregnant, they encounter a possible mishap, and decide its not worth it.

I imagined a scenario that if me and my wife were pregnant and had some bad test results like this, we of course would still follow through with it, and if the MD offered to terminate the baby as a service to us, I would tell him to fuck off and we would find another doctor immediately.

Adam: There are so many aspects to this issue and just preparing this post has brought all sorts of points to mind that I would love to share, but I can see that this post is already far too long. So let me implore those reading here to think this over and do some of your own research; don’t become a lemming. Here are some links that may be helpful for you:
www.all.org , www.nrlc.org , www.femministforlife.org , www.prochoice.org , www.plannedparenthood.org , www.pregnancycenters.org , www.adoption.org, www.rockforlife.org