Adam and Jeremy Say: They May Hate Us, But Do We Hate Them?

So Jeremy and I wanted to contiune our "They Hate Us and Liberty" Conversation from last week. If you did not catch it here is a link back to it, and I want to appologize in advance for the lenght of these posts, but both Jeremy and I got really into it and we hope that you chime in again with your insights.

Adam: I am really glad people like CJ are willing to hold our feet to the fire and test our faith. We could easily make all sorts of posts about faith, but never actually live out the words we write. I think it is great that people are willing to challenge each other. On some points CJ is right... I have met a handful of homosexual people in my life, and honestly I have always been too afraid to talk with them about their sexuality because I want to act normal around them, and I don’t want to offend anyone. I guess its some twisted logic of mine that I want people who are different from me to feel the same as people who are the same as me... but in that process I learn about jobs, sports, cars, etc. but I never learn about the deeper issues a person is facing. I think the point CJ makes is that we want to be loving and accepting of people, but until we stop “acting” loving and accepting and start getting to know what is going on below the surface then we will never really be able to know and love them... maybe he is right...

Jeremy: I agree. He is right in that Jesus tells us to be loving, and we should definitely do that with everyone including gays. But I also think he makes a good point, that we can say we love them, but if we don't make a little extra effort like "getting to really know one and talk to them about it", then are we really loving them or just simply "treating them normal"? Take for example my brother. I have never had a deep intimate conversation about his sexuality with him (then again, what straight brothers usually have that conversation?). I think he knows I love him, and unlike my dad and sister I have never had an argument with him about it and told him he was wrong. Plus, inviting Gary (my brothers partner) to our wedding I think was an effort of me and Jax to show that we still want them to be part of our lives even though we don't agree. I remember the rest of my family all reacting funny when we told them we were inviting Gary. I’m not trying to buff myself up, but all to say, I think we were making an effort, but I still haven’t gone as far as CJ has described with asking the hard, personal questions.
And the following is probably a good indicator as to why I should ask:
“I don't want to because I know it could make me uncomfortable.”

Adam: I think in some measure you are right in loving your brother and Gary without asking tough questions about their sexuality... I mean you know they are gay... so I don't know if there is a need to go past that... now you may want to talk to your brother about how he discovered his sexuality... or if something like your parents divorce had something to do with it, but I think those are questions about people and not questions about sexual preference... in the end the only difference between you and he is your fondness for the fairer sex right?

It was either Peter or Paul who said that we as Christians should focus on what is good, pure, beautiful, fare, just, etc. in our pursuit of peace, and I think the same holds true with anyone who you interact with... your focus should not be what their sins are or what your differences’ are, but instead your focus should be what is good, beautiful, and pure in them. We are all God's creation and on that level we are all equal.

I don't think we need to speak anymore about Dr. Falwell since that topic has been so overdone of late. So let’s move past that to an interesting point. Several people who commented made reference to living like Christ, and how if we lived like Christ then we would be respected and loved. I have a few thoughts on that. One it is interesting how a conversation about the hateful things people say about Liberty and its students has become so personal to you and I. I think I was originally just ticked at the hypocrisy of people who called themselves open minded but then stereotyped every Liberty student in a negative manner.

I think that people forget what the teachings of Christ where and what they meant... Jesus Christ was killed for his teachings and actions obviously they are not they kind of teachings and actions that make everyone love and adore you. I agree that Jesus tough a great amount about loving your neighbor and doing right and there are many Christians today who do not do anything close to that on a personal level,
However Christ also told us to die to ourselves, to admit that there is a God who created us and is over us and we should obey Him, He taught that we need to sacrifice in order that others can be first, He told us we must serve, all of which runs counter to Americas current culture. Now we want what’s best for us, no matter the cost. We make the rules we decide what is right and what is wrong, we put ourselves first and make others pay. Our society is Greedy, Selfish, and as I said before Shameless. These are all things Jesus preached against, violently at times, just ask the Pharisees in the Temple when Jesus cleaned house. So I don't know if people really mean it when they tell others to follow Christ’s' example or if maybe they just want us to follow the parts of Christ example that are warm and fuzzy.

Finally I think what you and I do in our service to the Lord as far as serving; loving, giving and sacrifice are personal and are not appropriate for this medium. Obviously if someone challenges you on your actions of love you want to respond with a list of all the righteous things you have done, but that defeats the purpose. We are called to love unconditionally not because it makes us look or feel good but because it is what God asks of us. I think Jesus summed it up when told the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (I might have the wrong occupation there) who were both at the temple praying... the Pharisee was praying out loud in flowery language so everyone could see how holy he was while the tax collector prayed silently and was humble... in the end Jesus tells us that the righteous man was the tax collector because he was praying to God while the Pharisee was really praying to impress man.

Jeremy: Good call. I don't want to give a list to prove our piety either. I like what you said on focusing on what is good, pure, and right. The hard part about that is that there is a "sexual preference" wall in between us, and I guess we could just ignore it....or can you? I guess the truth is, we can still love them despite them being gay, and we can even be loving in a conversation about it with them, but doesn't that also mean being open and honest from our perspective? I mean we can always sit there and listen and understand, but shouldn't I also be able to be honest about how I feel about it? Can I still be loving and tell them why I think what they are doing is wrong?

Adam: I think you are touching on an important point there... Dialogue! It does not really matter what the difference is; whether it’s sexual preference, political ideals or your favorite music we should all be open and willing to talk about it. That becomes tough though when dialogue turns into abuse, and it is even tougher to begin dialogue when it begins with abuse, as was the case when we began this discussion. I would like to see a place where people could all hold to the same standard in relation to dialoguing differences... it seems so often that one side is required to be accepting and loving while the other side can become offended and vindictive. You are right in saying that you should be able to be honest about how you feel and in return a person who disagrees with you should be honest about how they feel, but I think that too often we make comments about our feelings without giving concrete reasoning behind our feelings, and that can be a problem.

Take the abortion debate for example. I oppose the practice of abortion, and when I discuss this topic if I stopped there and just told people I was in opposition to the practice then the conversation would not get very far, but I try to take it a step or two further. I explain that I support the use of birth control before conception and that I huge supporter of adoption after birth, but I believe that abortion is wrong because it ends the life of a person created by God. Sometimes this gives me an opportunity to talk about common ground with people who do not agree. For example many who support the practice are also supporters of adoption and are more willing to talk about adoption than wasting time trying to beat each other up over abortion. However there are those who will argue and be hateful no matter what, and I guess it is those types of people who began this whole thing... and while we have yet to come up with an answer that satisfies I do think this discussion has given us pause to think...

Do we understand others? Are we giving them a chance to explain so that we can understand? Are we meeting people’s physical needs? Can we comprehend a person’s point of view if we have not had any real contact with that person’s world?

As cynical as it sounds Rage Against the Machine may have had a point when they sang "Know your enemy" not that I view those who disagree and oppose me as enemies but I think it is beneficial to understand who they are.

In the end the Bible tells us that Christians will be known by there love for one another, and I hope that people can see that you and I are loving

Adam and Jeremy Say: In Light of Virginia Tech...

Obviously the events at Virginia Tech are on the minds of everyone in the nation, and Jeremy and I are no different. We were not sure how to go about expressing our thoughts and feelings, and have taken several days to assemble them together via email. What follows are our insights pertaining to the event… it goes without saying that our thoughts and prayers are with Virginia Tech, and so what follows has little to do with well wishes and more to do with how we each dealt with the situation.

Jeremy: Monday as I was walking into our local grocery store (Ingles), I had been watching the news about the shootings at Virginia Tech and it was heavy on me. It was weighing on my mind and I was thinking about the aftermath of this tragedy and how it might affect everyone. One of the first things that popped in my head was "People are probably going to blame God and ask the default tragedy question: Why would God let this happen?" so I felt like asking God that question. "Why would you let this happen?" Because He loves us.

What?! Letting people kill people seems like the opposite of love. A loving God would protect us. I don't really know how to explain it, but when God created us he knew the only way for us to be truly happy was to give us our own will, and freedom to do as we choose as far as He would let us go. How could He be a loving God if He controlled our every action and did not give us free will? What’s troubling is that our own will is exactly that, and it usually desires to please itself. God wants us to worship Him, which is often the opposite of a self pleasing will. He knew this would happen when he created us and yet, He still did. I have no answer for that, but I'm not going to complain about the opportunity to have a life.

Back to the point: God so loves that He gave us our own will even though we will use that will for evil and hatred towards Him. This is the same selfish will that causes people to self satisfy their life by putting them first.....sometimes that means killing other people. If only they knew the most self satisfying action is to give your will completely to the devotion of glorifying God.

Adam: You know my wife's brother attends Virginia Tech and I have countless friends who have graduated from the school, so when I heard the news I was concerned, worried, shocked, sad, disillusioned, and many other adjectives that I can't come to grips with at this moment. As the news broke my family had no idea if our relatives and friends were safe; which caused chaos in my life, but as I learned that those I loved and cared for were safe I began to think about what, if anything, I could do. Prayer was obviously something I had been doing since the news broke, but as the day wore on I began to search for something more tangible, and so I began to think, do we need gun control? Is there something wrong with our society? Both of these questions were pertinent and both should be discussed in the future, but the problem I came back to was me!

I literally found myself crying in my state van on the way back from Nottoway County as I realized that I had caused the death of more than thirty people. Did I give someone a gun? Did I pull a trigger? Did have anything physically to do with this incident? No, but maybe that is my greatest sin. Jesus Christ taught that the two greatest commandments are to Love God with all you have and to Love Others as yourself, and seriously I think I have fallen short. More importantly I think most people who claim to follow Christ have fallen short. We claim we love God, but we have ignored the hungry and the cold; those who are unloved and forgotten; we have become more preoccupied with our buildings and our lives than we have with people God loves, with the people who need hope.

In another place in the Bible Jesus teaches about the final judgment; He teaches that there will be many people who feel like they should spend eternity in Heaven because the said pretty things and preached pretty sermons in Christ name, but He will say that He never knew them, obviously they will be dismayed and Jesus tells them that when he was hungry, naked, sick and alone they ignored Him, and they will say “but we never saw you this way” and He will say "What you do to the least of these you do to me." What He is saying is that the world is full of people who are cold, hungry, naked, sick, alone and hopeless; and those who truly follow Him will be the ones who meet these peoples needs, the ones who give people hope! So I will repeat what I cried to my Lord in the van yesterday...

I am sorry!

I am sorry that I have not loved, I am sorry that I have not shared my hope. There is no solution to the problems in this world. The world is really without hope... the Lord says that one day the whole thing will be destroyed and replaced by a new Heaven and new Earth. Obviously that does not bode well for this planet, but that doesn't mean that those of us who live on it are without hope, no, Jesus Christ came and sacrificed Himself as God and Man on the Cross so that everyone may have hope. A hope of a life filled with purpose, love and joy. Hope of an eternity in the awesome presence of God. A Hope for the end of the pain and the suffering of this world. I work in Petersburg VA, a desolate, crime and poverty ridden city, and everyday I drive down Washington and Wythe streets in the heart of the city and every day I see the most amazing sight... literally dozens and dozens of Churches, and ministries line the streets. And I ask why? Why are they there? What is the point of having a church or ministry when the people next door can’t pay the rent, and the girl on the corner has turned to prostitution, and a boy down the alley just got shot while dealing drugs? Why even exist if people are living under bridges, drinking away their pain, and waiting for HIV to kill them? Christians have failed! These people, all people, WANT HOPE and these churches and ministries have not given it to them; more importantly we have not given it to them. I could rant for days about the modern church and its worthlessness but instead I will just say... I am sorry.

I have to man up and say that the faith I represent is letting people down. Why can’t we love people why won’t we give them hope? I am no free love hippie, I don’t thing giving out hugs will cure the world of its ills, but I do think that loving the people God loves can stop people from walking into schools and killing innocent boys and girls... and I do think that giving people hope can break them of addiction and stop the cycle of poverty and pain... I think there is a God mightier than all the woes of this earth and I think if we are faithful to Him we can see this world changed, and I will never again have to say I am sorry when more than thirty people are killed by a man who had lost all hope.

Jeremy: Word. I think you have more hope for this world than I do. I confess that I have convinced myself that this world is hopeless and although I may try to reach out, I do so with the grief that my efforts are not going to change the world. I feel like the world has gotten so far from the cross that there is no turning back, and I wish Jesus would just come back and make everything right. Or maybe God could go back on his word and send another flood. Your hope is encouraging, but I will probably always struggle with the fact that I’m hopeless for the world. Don't get me wrong, my personal hope for my future and the future of my wife is based solely on the fact that we have accepted the grace of God and His salvation.....but as for the world....I know God can do miracles, but I feel the world is hopeless. So it’s almost out of sheer discipline that I do the work of the kingdom with the thought that it probably won’t change the world, but at least maybe it will just help this one person. "...if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land..."

Adam: Man I am sorry to hear you say that , and I hope that you change your mind and take the Lord seriously when He taught us to pray; “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” Let the will of God be done on earth, and let us strive for the Kingdom.

Adam and Jeremy Say: Iraq! War! Urgh! Part 3 (The End)

Adam: Dude let me take this in another direction; over the weekend I was reading Mathew 5,6 and 7; Jesus' Sermon on the Mount; and I hit the part about loving your enemies and I suddenly wanted to feel all vindicated... like "that's right we need to love not fight," but then I was given some revelation this morning... we should love our enemies and leave the war stuff the governments.... As Christians we should reach out to those who have been hurt by war, or for that matter bad men like Saddam Hussein. The world is a fallen place and because of that we all have to suffer and to say that we can fix that suffering by causing more suffering is crazy... peace by way of war... you're the Derek Webb fan you know what I am saying there... but I think its interesting how Jesus didn't view the world through a political lens, sure he took on religious leadership but the government he viewed as an institution placed there by God and so he gave it the respect it was due "Give unto Creaser what is Creasers." So I think maybe Christians are looking at this in the wrong way... In Mathew 5 when Jesus speaks about the attributes he wants in his followers he does not say he wants people who strive for justice and equality, he says he wants people who are meek and who want righteousness and peace, he wants people who are willing to suffer and sacrifice in His Name; and I think we lose that when we get wrapped up in government and military affairs... People in Iraq are dieing... at least 75 more were killed in a bomb attack the other day... soldiers from all sides are giving there lives so that there can be peace and I admire that but it doesn't mean I need to support the cause of death... instead I support the cause of Christ... I support those who support the wounded, I support those who support the hungry, I support those who support the homeless, the widowed, sad, broken, and lost. There is an entire country there that has known nothing but pain and suffering for a very long time and I don't think the best way to help them is to send in the army... though sending in the army has made it possible for us to send in the Word of God... we need people who are willing to bare the Cross of Christ to "lay down their lives" for the Iraqi people and I am not saying just going there to give out Bibles or preach the Gospel... I am talking about feeding the hungry, healing the sick, rebuilding schools and hospitals, taking care of the widowed and the fatherless... there is a world there that has known only hate from their leaders and from their religion it is time Christians stood up and showed them what love truly looks like... and maybe it wont do any good... maybe people will try to kill us, maybe people will try to stop us, maybe they will destroy the buildings and burn the food, and kill the women and children, but we are to expect that... Christ told us that would happen, but maybe it is time that Christians, and specifically American Christians, to follow Christ's example and forgo this world with the glory of the next one in mind.

Jeremy: I agree. This goes back to when I use to rant about how Christians shouldn't be a part of the military. Because how on earth could you love your enemy if all you do is train to one day kill them....and then killing them? That doesn't sound anything like love to me. But then I had a long thought out conversation with my fellow brother in Christ who is a US marine (also, an author and strong theologian). He explained it like, how can we love our neighbor if we are willfully ignorant to the fact that evil men (our enemies) are killing people in our own backyard while we are out "loving our enemies"? I think in situations like that, it comes down to choosing the greater love. and no, I don't think we can just sit back and say God is sovereign and will protect who he wants to protect, etc. he made us beings of action, and I think, sometimes the right action is defending the weak against evil men. I think going to Iraq and Afghanistan to love on those people is an awesome idea. Jesus commands us to reach out to the poor and oppressed.
That reminds me of this.....
We usually think of international missions as sending people into the African bush or jungles of South America. however, the facts show that you can travel miles into the jungles of brazil down a remote river and find people doing bible studies in a straw hut, but you can also walk down the streets in the capital of Afghanistan and talk to people who have never hear the name of Jesus. (This comes from a first hand account of the pastor at Rivers Edge church in Lynchburg, VA)

Adam: I am still not seeing it man, but that's okay we don't have to agree on everything, at least we agree on the important issue of loving people. Your comment of about Brazil there brings up an interesting side note... our church has been housing a missionary couple that is leaving this week to go to Brazil... but not go into the jungle but instead is going to one of its metropolitan areas to minister to business men there... because the area is internationally mixed they will dealing with people on their common ground... business... I think that was such an awesome way to reach a community.