Adam and Jeremy Say: Iraq! War! Urgh! Part 3 (The End)

Adam: Dude let me take this in another direction; over the weekend I was reading Mathew 5,6 and 7; Jesus' Sermon on the Mount; and I hit the part about loving your enemies and I suddenly wanted to feel all vindicated... like "that's right we need to love not fight," but then I was given some revelation this morning... we should love our enemies and leave the war stuff the governments.... As Christians we should reach out to those who have been hurt by war, or for that matter bad men like Saddam Hussein. The world is a fallen place and because of that we all have to suffer and to say that we can fix that suffering by causing more suffering is crazy... peace by way of war... you're the Derek Webb fan you know what I am saying there... but I think its interesting how Jesus didn't view the world through a political lens, sure he took on religious leadership but the government he viewed as an institution placed there by God and so he gave it the respect it was due "Give unto Creaser what is Creasers." So I think maybe Christians are looking at this in the wrong way... In Mathew 5 when Jesus speaks about the attributes he wants in his followers he does not say he wants people who strive for justice and equality, he says he wants people who are meek and who want righteousness and peace, he wants people who are willing to suffer and sacrifice in His Name; and I think we lose that when we get wrapped up in government and military affairs... People in Iraq are dieing... at least 75 more were killed in a bomb attack the other day... soldiers from all sides are giving there lives so that there can be peace and I admire that but it doesn't mean I need to support the cause of death... instead I support the cause of Christ... I support those who support the wounded, I support those who support the hungry, I support those who support the homeless, the widowed, sad, broken, and lost. There is an entire country there that has known nothing but pain and suffering for a very long time and I don't think the best way to help them is to send in the army... though sending in the army has made it possible for us to send in the Word of God... we need people who are willing to bare the Cross of Christ to "lay down their lives" for the Iraqi people and I am not saying just going there to give out Bibles or preach the Gospel... I am talking about feeding the hungry, healing the sick, rebuilding schools and hospitals, taking care of the widowed and the fatherless... there is a world there that has known only hate from their leaders and from their religion it is time Christians stood up and showed them what love truly looks like... and maybe it wont do any good... maybe people will try to kill us, maybe people will try to stop us, maybe they will destroy the buildings and burn the food, and kill the women and children, but we are to expect that... Christ told us that would happen, but maybe it is time that Christians, and specifically American Christians, to follow Christ's example and forgo this world with the glory of the next one in mind.

Jeremy: I agree. This goes back to when I use to rant about how Christians shouldn't be a part of the military. Because how on earth could you love your enemy if all you do is train to one day kill them....and then killing them? That doesn't sound anything like love to me. But then I had a long thought out conversation with my fellow brother in Christ who is a US marine (also, an author and strong theologian). He explained it like, how can we love our neighbor if we are willfully ignorant to the fact that evil men (our enemies) are killing people in our own backyard while we are out "loving our enemies"? I think in situations like that, it comes down to choosing the greater love. and no, I don't think we can just sit back and say God is sovereign and will protect who he wants to protect, etc. he made us beings of action, and I think, sometimes the right action is defending the weak against evil men. I think going to Iraq and Afghanistan to love on those people is an awesome idea. Jesus commands us to reach out to the poor and oppressed.
That reminds me of this.....
We usually think of international missions as sending people into the African bush or jungles of South America. however, the facts show that you can travel miles into the jungles of brazil down a remote river and find people doing bible studies in a straw hut, but you can also walk down the streets in the capital of Afghanistan and talk to people who have never hear the name of Jesus. (This comes from a first hand account of the pastor at Rivers Edge church in Lynchburg, VA)

Adam: I am still not seeing it man, but that's okay we don't have to agree on everything, at least we agree on the important issue of loving people. Your comment of about Brazil there brings up an interesting side note... our church has been housing a missionary couple that is leaving this week to go to Brazil... but not go into the jungle but instead is going to one of its metropolitan areas to minister to business men there... because the area is internationally mixed they will dealing with people on their common ground... business... I think that was such an awesome way to reach a community.

Adam and Jeremy Say: Iraq! War! Urgh! Part 2

Adam: This is a picture of my brother’s friend Eric who is in the Air Force. He is a helicopter gunner who in December had his right eye and part of his face blown off by a bullet. This is a serious personal reminder to me that people are having their lives altered forever... or even worse are being killed every day over there... Americans and Iraqis, and that's what is so terrible about this war... this war is killing people... and I wish that wasn't something that happens but in this fallen world I don't see an end to war in general... I just wish we could end this particular war.

Jeremy: War will always be a part of humanity. The hard part is deciding how to keep it minimal. There are things we can do to help prevent some war, but 20/20 hindsight is the only way to really know the best way to do that. History says that if you want peace, you have to fend off and rid yourself of those that desire war. Ironically enough, sometimes that means waging war to kill those people. I think humanity has come a long way in trying to find peace, and maybe someday everyone will realize that the best way to get what you want is to fairly negotiate instead of pulling the trigger.

Adam: Yes but we didn't even wait for some one to attack us... its hard to qualify right now because war is something countries or factions do... its so gray when a country declares war on terrorist... that doesn't define you enemy... that doesn't make it possible to win.

Jeremy: 911 was an attack on us. There are zillions of links with the terrorists behind the 9-11 attacks with the terrorists in Iraq. Even though Saddam wasn't an Al Qaeda member, he allied with them by providing a safe haven in his country for them to operate. Plus, he had a history of very aggressive behavior that needed to be reconciled before he did something else. It was only a matter of time. Its hard for me to say, but I also agree that we shouldn't attack someone unless they have attacked us first. It sucks just sitting around knowing there are maniacs out there that are going to attack us, but we can’t just go around eliminating everyone we think might be a threat. Saddam, I think, is an exception because of his history and the links to terrorism that made him more than just a threat.

Adam: Okay I need you to not quote anything you have heard from FOX News for a little while... links between Saddam and Terrorist where sketchy at best... and if you want to take down every psychotic dictator who threatens someone then there is a list a mile long of countries we would have to invade... that cant be a reason to start a war... If Saddam had attacked us I would get it... I even got going after the Taliban Government that Funded 911, but if you want to talk about funding... talk about the Saudi's they are one of the biggest backers of terrorist groups and we don't attack them... My feeling is that we just didn't have a strong enough case for war... not like that has stopped us before... WW1... but I just don't think... "Saddam was a bad guy and there may be a terrorist link." Is a reason... Do I think Saddam needed to be stopped... yes... but I also think the whole government of Sudan should be taken out... and the North Korean Government... I think Iran has issues that needed to be addressed... but then I think someone like Chavez in Venezuela is being cast as this communist bad guy... guess what he doesn't like us... but he is making it possible for the poor in his country to live and to have healthcare and to work... so I say he is doing something right...I am ranting at this point... but I think the problem boils down the grayness of the matter... can we see black in white here... or are we just dealing with shades of gray?

Jeremy: Gray. It’s all gray....or is it grey?
Al Zarqawi was the number 2 guy in al Qaeda, right? Zarqawi ran operations in Iraq....freely. I don’t have to watch fox news to understand that if a=b, and b=c, then a=c. that seems black and white to me. I don't care about some Venezuelan dude, just like I don't care about Castro....they don't have a hand in killing Americans. I agree with you about stopping Sudan and north Korea and Iran, but we cant go to war with all those countries just because they suck(as you and I both know). Even though they pose a threat to us, I don't think they pose as big a threat as those supporting terrorists. Or if they do, I don't care, because we are in a war with terrorists right now. If North Korea had attacked us before 9/11, I would be more concerned with them, but I doubt a war with them would have lasted this long. It’s unfortunate that we are not at war with a particular country like Korea, because it would be such an easier war to understand and support. Alas, we are Americans and don't like supporting anything unless it’s easy.
In the 90s, I was often curious about what the next big war would be. Funny, I thought us and china would have been in WWIII before we got in a turkey shoot with a bunch of gorillas.

Adam: Nearly 3,000 people died in the combined September 11, 2001 attack
42,636 people died in auto accidents in US in 2005
200,000 people have died in the genocide in Sudan
Between 600,000 and 1million people died from starvation in North Korea between 1995 and 2000

Statistically speaking what is our biggest problem?

Jeremy: When you say "our" biggest problem, I'm assuming you mean the world’s biggest problem. I guess it would be the one with the highest statistics, but that was kinda like comparing apples to oranges. You can’t really compare the deaths of people in 911 to people in car accidents or those killed by abortions. I don't think you can get the US military involved in an intersocial issue with other countries. We can’t invade Korea just because they don't know how to keep their own people alive. That doesn't threaten us. If Sudan has plans to spread its genocide into other countries, then I can see why it might be a problem for us, but if they want to just kill each other, then other than my moral obligations as a Christian, I don't see what America can do about that.

Adam and Jeremy Say: Iraq! War! Urgh! Part 1

This is how the conversation began… you will have to wait to see how it ends.

Jeremy: What do you think would happen if the United States had a massive withdrawal tomorrow of all our troops and military presence in the Middle East?

Adam: What would really change? Are they not already shooting each other? Are they not already blowing up innocent people? I think the only reason we are there is to ensure that another dictator does not rise and take control of that country; well that and to help protect Israel.

Jeremy: Well, if nothing would change, then I don’t think there really is a reason for us to hang around there anymore. I don't think we are going to find WMD unless we invade Syria and Iran. I think there would be an all out Civil War if another dictator tried to take over. I know you could say that there already is a civil war going on, but you know what I mean. I'm tired of sitting around there playing police. I think they have enough government and military now to fight off the insurgents as those pop up. I think Israel can take care of itself from all immediate threats, and we could always be there within the day to back them up if something happened. I guess the only thing we couldn't stop is a nuclear attack on Israel. But, then again, we probably couldn’t stop that on American soil either. I think if terrorists had nuclear weapons, they would have already used them, and it’s only a matter of time until the French of Syrians sell them the technology and supplies to make them.